Donna Hardman and the role of the Board in change

by | Sep 23, 2018

Donna Hardman, MBA BCom GAICD FAMI

Non Executive Director, Mentor, Consultant, Changemaker

 Today, I have a special guest who I’m really excited about. Those of you who know my work know that I really, really get enthusiastic about learning, and in particular, picking up new information and domains that I’m not overtly familiar with, which is why today’s topic, we’re going to look at the role of the board in organizational change. I’m absolutely delighted to have Donna Hardman as my guest on the show.

 

I’m just tell you a little bit about Donna before we welcome her. Donna and I crossed paths about nine years ago. We were working on a large transformational program. Donna was the program director. I was doing the change comms on it. It was for a large financial services company. We didn’t actually work super close together, but the thing that really, really impressed me, was at the time, I was reading all about this notion of servant leadership, and here I was with somebody who was exhibiting every characteristic of a servant leadership, and with all the pressures of the program, was absolutely committed to the health and wellbeing of the program. It was with great delight that I first met Donna. Donna, welcome to the show.

Donna Hardman: 

Hey. Thanks, Jen. I look back at that time when we met quite fondly. I knew very little about this expertise area called change management. Like you, I suppose, I’m a keen learner. It was great fun, listening and learning from you. I remember at the time thinking, “Gee, I hope we stay in touch.” Can’t believe it, all these years later, we are. Yeah. I’m delighted to be having a conversation with you today.

Jen Frahm:     

Oh, terrific. Thanks so much. Now, Donna, if we look back at of what you’ve got going on in your career, you have got fast-paced startups and large transformations. You’ve worked in multiple countries. For the listeners, if you want to see a template of best practice, how do you write a LinkedIn summary of your experience and what you’re looking to do next, you can go no further than Donna’s profile. It’s pretty stupendous. You’re now doing a large amount of work in governance, so non-executive directors, consulting to boards around transformations, matters of transformation. Donna, I’m kind of curious, what was your pathway into governance work from where you’d come from in program work?

Donna Hardman:          

Yeah. Sure, Jen. Quay Credit Union … Many listeners would know Quay Credit Union probably better as AMP Credit Union … were looking to make some changes, some fairly significant strategic changes. They’d made a decision that this change needed to be led at the board level. They were looking to transform into a completely digital branchless organization. They knew me as the change leader. The AMP connection, they knew that I had been involved in launching Australia’s first digital bank, AMP Banking, and that I had a background in operations and strategy in the banking space. So I guess it was a skills-based piece of thinking on their part, but probably also they were looking for that change leadership role model, maybe, at the board table. I was working at AMP, again, at the time, helping them launch a self-managed super fund business for the first time, and I was doing my AICD Company Directors Course. One of the guys there on the board tapped me and asked if I would be interested in joining their board. It really just sounded to me like the perfect start.

Jen Frahm:         

Yeah. How fantastic. Now, in your LinkedIn profile and certainly in other pieces that I’ve seen on you, you identify as a changemaker. I’m really curious about that identity. What does that title mean to you?

Donna Hardman:   

Yeah. When I was writing my LinkedIn profile, I was trying to figure out, “What is a phrase that I really am attached to? What kind of mindset to I bring to all these different roles?” I guess I was looking for a link between the kind work I did and how I did it. The idea, I guess, was seeded back roughly at the time we met. Although I didn’t call myself a changemaker back then, but I was doing a lot of firsts, getting involved in transforming how businesses were done. Back then, it was really more about the operating models and processes as you were saying before, new banks, offshoring, outsourcing, et cetera.

 If I think about it, what I really loved, was the pace and the complexity and the multifaceted nature of the work.

I love looking for connections between things, the technology, the people, the strategy, the risk. But most importantly, I really, really enjoyed the EQ challenge. I really liked doing things differently. I loved the change. Change was not something I feared, it was something I embraced. I really enjoyed it. Particularly, I liked what leading people through change did to my leadership skills. It really tested the mettle, as they say. I guess a changemaker was the thing that I started to see myself as. Luckily for me, the world has changed. I think the need to be decent at change and change leadership has only increased as my career has increased. So today, as a board director or a consultant, I’m still working on making change happen. These days, it’s a little different. It’s with others, and often in a support role, and more as a servant leader. But nevertheless, the mindset that I bring to all the work that I do is still very much the mindset of a changemaker. That’s why I use that phrase.

Jen Frahm:     

Yeah. How does the changemaker differ from the change leader for you?

Donna Hardman:     

Yeah. I’m no expert on this, by the way. I’m not attempting to set any groundbreaking definitions or anything, but just in my mind, the leadership role is not always appropriate for a board member. I’m really comfortable with that. I’ve always been happy to take the lead when it’s required, and I’m just as happy to support another great leader. In fact, sometimes, I’m much more happy in a support role helping someone be amazing. I guess change and complex change, certainly change at an organizational level, is a team sport. I see myself today as one of a group that makes change happen, and not necessarily in that leadership role.

Jen Frahm:    

That actually leads really nicely into the next question that I was curious about. We hear a lot about the role of the C-Suite in organizational change. We know how critical change leadership is in change. If I reflect on the time from when we worked together to where I am now, and I think back in those days, I was really committed to change communication is the most important thing in change. Now, I’ve moved to a space of, “No, it’s actually the leadership is the most important thing in change. We can have awesome change communication, but without the leadership engaged, I see things fall over.” What is the role … I think you’ve hinted a little bit there in terms of, what is the role of the board in organizational change?

Donna Hardman:     

Well, in today’s world, everything is about change, I suppose. It’s quite volatile and unclear and complex, ambiguous today, the world we operate in. Everything that a board is doing, I guess, the context within which you’re doing your work is a changing one. So business leadership, be it a board member’s role or a CEO or a member of an executive team, but business leadership is change leadership. Consequently, governance … To my mind anyway … is change governance. I mean, the more interesting, and probably arguably, the more important work you do is governing through change. I would argue that the board’s role is pretty significant.

Perhaps just to give some context, in my mind, it goes like this. The pressure that we face today in business is pretty vast, you know? You’ve got new environmental circumstances such as, let’s say, changing wheels of competition. Think about Uber and the taxi industry. We’ve got shorter tech life cycles than ever before, you know, apps on your phone versus how long it used to take to change a legacy banking system. Customers demand delivery to my door today. There’s a lot of pressure facing organizations and therefore boards. Your skill, your ability to adapt and flex in that environment is really key.

 From a risk point of view, the risks that you need to consider to effectively govern an organization, it comes from everywhere, you know?

They’re not neatly sitting in your nice business model these days, and the competitors behave like they’re meant to on your charts, and your customers stay nice and steady, and you decide whether or not you might go after segment A or segment B. The risks that we’ve got to think about come from the damnedest places. Think about cyber threats and digital disruption. There’s a lot going on. In order to be effective, we need to adapt and consider change, and swiftly. Part of being good as a board director today, or a leader at the top of organizations, is beefing up your toolkit in the change space, and being able to adapt and consider what that all means.

I guess another way of looking at it is, what does a board do? Well, we do strategy or risk. We look at decision-making frameworks. We allocate resources. That’s pretty straightforward. But what’s less straightforward, is that we need to do that in a dynamic and changing environment. We manage organizational CEO performance. These days, it’s very clear that we’re responsible for the optimal culture of an organization. But all of that’s a bit tricky as the world changes around you, so you need to be comfortable to change as an organization and as a board. You need to figure out when you need to take the lead. But mostly, I guess, we need to play a support role and set clear direction and put in place the right frameworks and allocate and source the optimal resources. That includes at the right time, you know, change management expertise at the very top.

And then sometimes, it’s as simple as backing off and supporting the CEO to lead the change. Even my answer, you can hear, is quite a dynamic one. But I think that’s the truth of it. You’ve got to sense what your role is and isn’t, and adapt. It’s not easy, but it’s certainly a lot of fun.

Jen Frahm:

This is what I’m thinking. I’m thinking about the clients that I work with. I’m curious around how is the board sensing … Or what are the success metrics? From a tangible, concrete perspective, how does the board know the change is going well and they need to support in a particular way, or it’s not going well? Does that come down to the engagement with the C-Suite, or are there other measures or indicators that let a board know, “Actually, we need to be more engaged or do something differently around this change agenda”?

Donna Hardman: 

I mean, but the mere fact we’re talking about it, the board’s involved in the change. We’re obviously talking about a pretty significant strategic change of course.  I think the challenges of getting your head around whether or not a change program’s going well or not is similar to the challenge that is understanding whether or not the health of your culture, your organizational culture, is strong or optimal, right? It actually is a tricky business. I think how you could get it wrong is just to rely on material that comes to you at the board table, so your change program feedback reports or status … you know, the reports that come in from your change lead or the CEO, and the formal presentations and material that you get. I think if you rely on just those things, in the same way as I never rely simply on culture and climate surveys, for example. Although they’re helpful, I don’t use that as my one way of sensing whether the culture of the organization is right.

 I’m a real believer in governance by walking around. I think a lot of directors get it, that they need to take a read of culture to work out how things are going on around here when they start a new board.

But less so as the years go on, and often not as much as a change program is rolling out, but I would suggest that conversation at the water cooler and conversations with various people within the organization, that you would usually do during your orientation, is something that you should probably do ongoing. I know it’s a funny answer, but there’s a lot of sensing I think. Certainly for me, anyway. I get a read of an organization, and I do that better when I’m talking to real people in real roles.

I guess the other thing I do, which may not be enjoyable for many other people but me, it goes back to my operational banking roots, I think. But one way that I think you can get a real read of how a program is going in change rollout or performance generally, is spend some time buddy-jacked in a call center, and just listen to customer calls, or if it’s an intermediary, business calls, help desk calls, whatever. Just listen to the calls that come at that call center operator in the natural pattern that they come, and hear not just the words, but the tone and the passion of the conversation. If you spend enough time listening … Because the good thing about buddy-jacking, you actually can’t speak. You’ve only got the earplug in your ear, right? So there’s no other choice but just to listen and to feel what’s going on. I think there’s no better way, for me anyway, to get a sense of how’s this program going. Not for everyone, I get that.

Jen Frahm:     

I couldn’t agree with you more. I get astounded when I find people working on customer centricity programs and stuff like that, and they’ve never actually done that. Because I just think there is nothing like sitting in the call center and that really hearing it in its raw form to understand what the problems are, and also what the areas are to celebrate, you know, what’s going really well. I think it can be a tremendous source on that.

Donna Hardman:    

I couldn’t agree more. I mean, every time I spend time in a call center, I’m humbled. You see the real heroes in the organization. These people work hard,  the tempo and the passion with which they do their work, it always inspires me. I think the other thing about a call center listening opportunity is the volume of it. It’s just relentless. It’s cheating, I suppose, but you can just get a feed of the pace that … For example, on one of my boards, the Construction and Development Board, and so we go out on site visits and we can meet staff and customers that way. But it’s a much slower … It’s definitely useful … but it’s a slower way of getting a read. What your question was about, was getting a read of how well a change program is working. Whereas in a contact center, you get a lot of it in a short space of time.

Jen Frahm:         

What you’ve just described, that approach, is that a Donna approach, or is that representative of most board members in general?

Donna Hardman:    

I don’t know of any other board member that does it. To be truthful, I think if board members did, they might make management really nervous about, “What are they really up to?” I would follow the Donna way, as you describe it, with caution. You would definitely need to explain precisely what it was about and ensure that everyone’s really confident that you’re not actually going to take action items and find out the folks that do things differently. No, it’s not common, but I hear more and more, and I certainly have more and more conversations myself with people who are asking the kinds of questions that you’re asking me. I talk a lot more about, you know, it is really important for all management, and particularly people leaders, to get out of their comfort zone, get away from the desk, and get into the fray and meet real people, and in particular, customers, and get a sense of, what do we do, and how do we do it?

Jen Frahm:   

Super. Are there challenges that you see at a governance level that you really wish people in organizations, the employees or the managers, knew?

Donna Hardman:  

Well, how do I answer that? Can I talk about a weakness of mine at the governance level that might be repeated elsewhere?

It’s funny, because I learned this lesson a long time ago, but I’m obviously a slow learner. It comes down to this. It’s actually humanness … If that’s a word … humanity. You know, when we’re dealing with change, we know we’re dealing with people, right? That textbook says so. We all get it, I think at least intellectually, that people live whole lives, and they don’t just play out this role at work. But for me, how deeply do we really get this? How aware are we, really, in the cut and thrust of everyday situations? This applies to the board table, but it’s applied to my work for a very long time. I still forget it.

This lesson, I learned most profoundly when I was in an operation role in a bank, so Australasian head of operations. I had, I don’t know, 300 or 350 or so staff and three business areas, call center one of them, which was where my passion for buddy-jacking started, in mortgage process and transactions. I had couple of countries, so I knew there were some differences, I guess, by function and country, to think about when I was thinking about the people. It was a knowledge that I had in my head, but not really in my heart.

I knew, for example, that my call center staff were people-centric and most often extroverted and even flamboyant, actually, which was quite joyful, to be honest. The pressures were different. I knew that the credit decision makers were often analytical and private thinkers. Lots of generalization here, but you know what I mean? I knew when I went across the ditch, that the Kiwis would give me more frank feedback, and the Aussies were slightly less. I knew that I was dealing with human beings, and I knew there were differences. I tried to really appreciate those things.

But I guess the deeper lesson I learned back in those days was quite humbling. It’s really stayed with me.

Once you lead, I don’t know, maybe a hundred staff, I’m not really sure, but once you have a number of staff statistically, factually, you’re looking after people that have cancer, are dealing with a broken relationship, or maybe they’re facing financial hardship. It’s just a numbers thing.

You are. I guess the point I’m trying to get across is that sometimes, it’s these invisible … Back to your question … these invisible challenges that are happening outside of the workplace. They might better explain an unusual performance result or an outburst or a strange decision better than any other formal process, be it change or line management appraisal process or whatever, any surface conversation would uncover. That is still something that I don’t get right today.

Fast forward to sitting at a board table or in an investor meeting, I don’t know why, I guess I think I’m supposed to have more grown-up conversations or more formal conversations, or maybe it’s just the unusual construct of a board meeting. I don’t know. But sometimes, I try and lean to an unusual decision or directive, or I react to a challenging behavior on the surface of it with my head. I forget this lesson, that I’m dealing with a fellow human being, an imperfect one, and a multifaceted one. A flesh and blood person who may have something going on outside of their life, and that’s why they were so snappy in that investor conversation. It wasn’t about my less than optimal rem report or my inarticulate way of driving through a point at the board table. It might actually be something else.

We don’t talk about that very much at director school. But I think it actually is one of the most … It’s an invisible challenge, to your question … but it’s probably one of the most important things to get your head around, if you’re going to be truly effective in governance. Particularly, if you’re going to be truly effective at leading change at a governance level, you’ve got to remember to bring your heart to the table and be aware, be aware of what’s going on for those around you.

In the introductory session, I was very flattered and quite delighted, to be honest, that you were observing that actually as a program director in the fast-moving, high-stress … I have to say … project, I really did have an eye on the wellbeing of my team. That’s not just because I’m a people-wired person, but also because that is how I knew to continuously or reliably deliver these hard programs time and again. It was always about that. I don’t think that’s changed a lot. I still think that’s true. Today in the role, in the work that I do, the most important thing I can do, actually, is to take care of the people and to consider the people. That’s everybody, right? It’s my colleagues, my very impressive esteemed colleagues at the board table are no less important than everybody else that we serve. Yeah. As I say, we don’t talk about that a lot.

Jen Frahm: 

Yeah. It’s interesting, because there’s a really synchronicity with one of the blog posts that I’ve published this week is around why leaders don’t always lead change. It looks at change leadership from the lens of empathy and say that, “Well, they’re human. These are the things that could be playing out behind the scenes that we don’t think about.” Fabulous synchronicity. I couldn’t have set that up better, if I tried.

Donna Hardman:        

I truly haven’t read your draft.

Jen Frahm:          

No. I know. I know. It’s literally just published.

Donna Hardman:   

There you go. It just makes sense. It makes sense.

Jen Frahm:     

Yeah. Absolutely. I think you’re right. It’s something we’ve been putting to the back-burner for some time. Look, I think what I want to get on to, there’s two huge change challenges in your role as changemaker that you have chosen to lead on at the moment. They are one, increasing the presence of women in governance, and two, increasing our industry literacy with respect to China. Can you tell us first about the gender reform work you’re doing?

Donna Hardman:   

Yeah. That sounds a bit grand, Jen.

Jen Frahm: 

Pardon?

Donna Hardman:  

I’m not sure I’m doing gender reform work. That sounds a bit fancy for me. But I guess what I’m simply trying to do is the right thing, or arguably, the smart thing.

Because I think supporting more women getting into leadership roles … In fact, increasing the cognitive diversity of teams that lead complex organization … is actually the smart thing to do for business genuinely.

I guess it’s really just about being the best business leader I can be. Yeah. When I see an opportunity to help women get into leadership roles, the right women … I’m very much a believer in merit-based appointment … so the right into leadership roles. But more important than that, actually, is when they get into those leadership roles, that they are set up to succeed, that the team around them adapt to allow them to do their very best. I’ve got a real eye on this challenge at the moment. I just, whenever I see an opportunity to do my bit, I do.

Jen Frahm:  

Part of that, doing your bit, has, I guess, aligned with another pressing business challenge for you, which is our industry literacy about China. Why China? Why now? Tell us what you’re doing, and what this means for us in terms of change and transformation. Big question.

Donna Hardman:       

Well, I guess we were talking before, Jen, about the challenges that often come to organizations don’t come inside a nice little business model anymore. They come from all over. There’s a lot going on in China. In fact, I’m borrowing this quote from the CEO of Villa World. He said to me, “Oh, if you think you’re an effective business leader or a senior business leader in Australia and you don’t know what’s going on across in China, arguably, you’re not really at the top of your game.” I think that’s true. China are clearly big and Australia’s biggest trading partner. There is a lot going on there. It’s going on at scale, a scale that’s quite honestly hard for me to wrap my head around. I can’t wait to see it. But nevertheless, there’s a lot going on. Businesses in Australia have relations with China, be it as suppliers or customers or investors or whatever. It really is a really important part of the world to understand, I think.

Back to the women in leadership roles, I think it’s important that women … And I include myself in this … who want to confidently be involved in important strategic conversations, you have to have a base knowledge, I think, to be able to participate confidently. I guess the personal part of this answer is, I realized my knowledge base on this part of the world is not what it needs to be. I’m not a very good imposter. I don’t fake things well. So I felt like I needed to learn a bit more.

That’s why China, I guess, from a personal perspective. The reason I’m taking 20-odd women with me is partly because I thought, “Well, if I’m this boat, I wonder if other women are too,” and, “Why not? Why not take a team?” I guess the other reason was, I thought about, “Well, how might I like to approach my own learning about China?” I had been on a trade mission to Israel … The women’s-only trade mission to Israel … last year. It was done brilliantly. I don’t know. There’s so many things I could share with the listeners. I’ll start with this. It was an incredible experience, to spend time with other senior business leaders, having conversations of more than an hour, and time in-between the conversations to really reflect and come back and go, “Hey, and what about,” and, “Do you think we could apply this here,” and so on. And having a variety, a diverse group of people on that trip, just made the learning experience so much better.

Moreover, the Australia … I have to do a shout-out … the Australia and Israel Chamber of Commerce, New South Wales in particular. Michelle Bloom does a fabulous job designing trade missions that start in history, and have a certain amount of connecting with people, the human bit of learning, and then move to business and try and sort of unpack those things. I was cheating. I had been on this incredible, I would say, role model mission. I thought, “Yeah, that’s how I want to approach learning about China. That’s who I want to learn about China with. I guess I could also tick another box and invest in my colleagues, if you like.” I was thinking colleagues at the time.

I went in search of the equivalent in China, and I could not find it, so I designed the mission I wanted, which did all of those things. It was about listening, it was about learning, and it was about connecting with Chinese people in particular … I was interested in connecting with women … in order to have a better context, a more fruitful context, to have business conversations and do trade. Long story short, got the China Australia Trade and Investment Council to buy into my crazy ride, to design this mission for me.

https://youtu.be/-KkmthiPnHI

<iframe width=”560″ height=”315″ src=”https://www.youtube.com/embed/-KkmthiPnHI” frameborder=”0″ allow=”autoplay; encrypted-media” allowfullscreen></iframe>

Somehow in this process, I found myself as the leader of this mission, I think quite honestly because I was just so passionate about what it could look like. Roped in my great pal of mine, Alice Tay, who’s much more knowledgeable than I about what we’re trying to do. We set about trying to select 20 … We’ve actually gone slightly over … but 20 incredible women who we think could make the most of this trip, and do a few things, I suppose, learn … so create the right dynamic to be able to really maximize this learning opportunity, and then be able to genuinely do something with what we do, so that we can participate in conversations more effectively … Can just imagine the podcast that will result … so they can more effectively do something with this knowledge, and share this knowledge when we come back, such that we can play a leadership role in conversations about what’s happening in our region, or in my mind, in our neighbourhood.

I don’t know if it’s okay to mention this in the podcast, but I’m going to. That’s why people like you, Jen, have been selected as a delegate on this trade mission. I think it’s really important that we don’t just look at this as an opportunity for ourselves to learn personally, and even as a group, that’s not the end of it for me. It’s a great opportunity, when we select delegates like you, is that you pay it forward and the conversations go on. This is just the beginning of learning about China and the role of women in leadership roles. Hopefully, this is the beginning of a whole lot of really exciting change that each of us can go away and participate in, and some of us will lead. Yeah. Long answer. Sorry. I’m truly excited about this, as you can hear. They’re two big passions for me.

Jen Frahm: 

No, look, I get it. I think one of my favorited sayings or life philosophies is, “As I teach, so do I learn. As I learn, so do I teach.” This feels like it’s such a good opportunity for that. When the opportunity to apply for it came up, I think there were two things happening for me when I was thinking about China. Actually, there were three things. First was I have no idea, and I haven’t felt this ignorant in a long time, beyond cultural stereotypes. So that sounds like it’s an area that I probably need to dig into.

Two, from change and transformation, I was kind of thinking, “Okay, in Australia, are we going to be on the receiving end of pressures and trends and initiatives that are being generated from China that we need to know more about, in terms of how do we respond perhaps in a defensive way? But secondly, the proactive non-defensive, from the reading that I have done and the knowledge that I do have, China is so extraordinary with its innovation and technology. It’s ahead of everybody. What opportunities are there from a change and transformation, that if we knew more about what was possible, we could do?” That’s why I’m looking forward to it.

Donna Hardman:     

Look, I’m so excited to hear you say that, Jen. As I say, I think the podcast that will come out of this, if nothing else, the blogs, the conversations, the speaking gigs. For me, the possibilities are endless. I’m very optimistic about the role that Australia can play in the China-Australian relationship. I love that we’ve got delegates in this group with a change expertise. We’ve got others who specialize in the customer experience. We’ve got a whole range of perspectives. I think both those things together are really going to create fruitful conversations. My view is, we’ll seriously hold our own with the businesspeople we meet over there.

Donna Hardman:  

The connection part, it’s really a big part of how we’ve designed the mission and the events that we’re running.  I know there’s challenges with social media and other things in China. I know something about what’s going on. But I’m very optimistic about what could we do as knowledge exchange and growth opportunity for all of us, a connection opportunity for all of us going forward. I love what you’ve said, which is precisely why you’re on the team.

Jen Frahm:   

Donna, I think one thing that will be clear to the listeners through this podcast, is that you are incredibly generous, and you give so much to those around you. That’s evident in the stories you’ve told. As we head in to wrap this up, how can the listeners help you, Donna? What would you like listeners to either know, do, or help you with?

Donna Hardman:           

I actually don’t see it that way. I’m a lifelong learner and an active networker and a connector. I get so much more out of the relationships and interactions that I have in business and in my life than I ever, ever put in. I’m a very fortunate person with a career that I’m proud of, for sure, but I am grateful to have had, or to be having. Back to the earlier point, I’m really excited about the conversations that we’re going to spark. I guess the reason I said yes to your podcast request, is because I really hope that listening to us chat is helpful to others. I hope we get some feedback. I hope we spark some ideas and some conversations with others. I’ll really love to hear that. I guess it’s via your Conversations of Change blog, maybe. Is that right, Jen?

Jen Frahm: 

Well, actually, no. This will be on the drjenfrahm.com blog, so different blog site. But what I think, if we’re looking for feedback … Now, remind me, your Twitter handle is …

Donna Hardman:          

Oh, it’s probably not the one to use.

Jen Frahm:      

Okay.

Donna Hardman:  

I reckon it’s through your blog, Jen. But I guess the answer to what I would love to get out of this is to … Firstly, what I would love, is that we’ve actually helped people have more interesting and deep conversations. That would be awesome. What you could do for me, is to let us know, to let me know, via you, the difference that we’ve made, or the new ideas that you can share back with us, the help that you can provide to us about the problems that you and I are both puzzling.

Jen Frahm:       

Fantastic. Fantastic. Leaders, listeners, so that you can contribute to this conversation, provide that feedback, this podcast will go into a blog post on drjenfrahm.com. It’ll be then shared on LinkedIn. You’ll have opportunities either in the blog post or on the LinkedIn to leave comments and questions and engage Donna in conversation that way. Donna Hardman, this has been a joy to speak with you. I am so very grateful for your time. I know you’re extremely busy. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

Donna Hardman:   

Pleasure, Jen. Enjoyed the chat. Thanks.

 

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