Leading Change: Gender Equality

by Nov 26, 2020

Michelle Redfern, Advancing Women in Sport and Business, Non-Executive Director, LinkedIn Top Voice for 2020.

And hello everybody, it is Dr Jen Frahm here, again on another conversation of change. I have got some breaking news for you at the moment. You are of the first to know that there is another Dr, Jen Frahm book coming out. And now that I’ve said it out loud, it really has to happen. I’ve just made it be truly, truly accountable. So, yeah, I’m really hopeful that at the beginning of next year, early next year, you’ll have a book called Change. Leader: It’s an Instruction, Not just a Role. One of the chapters that I’ve got in this book coming up is “The Most Difficult Change You Will Lead” being leading change through gender equality, climate change and anti-racism in organizations.

So, I thought the really sensible thing to do, and perhaps the lazy thing to do, is to perhaps record some of the interviews I’m doing with some of the specialists in the field around this. This has been a period of learning for me in this space. This is why it is the last chapter in the book. It is the one that I know the least on. But nevertheless, I felt it was the most important.

So, it my very, very great pleasure to introduce you to Michelle Redfern.

Michelle is the founder of Advancing Women in business and sport. She provides research and advisory on gender diversity and inclusion. She’s the founder of Women Who Get it, which is a professional career network. Co-founder of A Career that Soars. She’s a Non-Executive Director. She has awards coming out of her ears, left, right and center. Michelle, welcome to the Conversations of Change.

Michelle Redfern:

Well, thank you Dr. Jen. It’s wonderful to be here. And if you kept going like that, the screen wouldn’t have been big enough to fit my head on.

Dr. Jen Frahm:

Possibly so. Michelle, tell us a little bit about your background. How did you come to be working in this space, to be an expert in gender equality?

Michelle Redfern:

So, how I came, I think it was always meant to be Jen. But like a lot of other people, I had to go on the journey. So, I had a fairly long and arguably successful career in corporate Australia and for a number of organizations. People can see my LinkedIn for that, I’m not going to bore them with it now. But I would say that over the course of my career, a couple of things characterized that career. Particularly, my leadership career. One was creating environments where people could be themselves, and really thrive. And the second was that I am a unabashed feminist, and have been since I was born. And I have never really understood why women couldn’t do whatever the bloody hell they wanted to do. And I kind of bumped up against that in my career, probably a little bit later than people would imagine. But I bumped up against it nonetheless. And it was about the time when you and I first met. When I suddenly went, “Oh, goodness. There’s no Messiah coming. It does appear to be up to me.”

So, I set about doing something about what I saw as an issue. Both a social justice issue, and an issue for business more broadly. And said, “Right. Finally, I’ve worked out what I’m going to be when I grow up.” At the grand old age of 40 something. So, that’s how I came to be, in the abbreviated version.

Dr. Jen Frahm:

Yeah, that’s terrific. And I think for many of us, that how to come to be, often isn’t before that. So, I think there’s plenty who can relate to that. And I did want to say and acknowledge, one of the reasons why I wanted you on this show and talk to you about this, was not just you expertise in the area of gender equality which you’ve been extraordinary in your efforts in. But also, as a leader of change. You are correct, I did work with you in our way back distant past. And you’re one of these leaders of change that I will follow forever. So, thank you for your efforts in that space.

Michelle Redfern:

Well, that is very kind. And back at you, without turning this into a mutual admiration society. I really appreciated the things that you taught me, particularly at the time. If I reflect on the time when you and I first met, I was navigating in hindsight, probably one of the most difficult leadership roles I ever had. You know, very stakeholder heavy environment. That’s a nice way to put it. And you were able to, well, not only be a sounding board and certainly an allied. But you were able to give me some practical tools and ideas about how to navigate change.

And I’d always considered myself to be a very, very good change agent or agent of change. I actually really enjoy change. But one of the things I learned over time, was that not everyone’s like me. Amazing. It’s probably a good thing. And that I needed to understand through using empathy and having different techniques and tools and approaches. And learning, learning to learn from experts like you, that I could help people navigate change a lot better. So, thanks to you for that.

Dr. Jen Frahm:

Oh, you’re very welcome. And you’ve just written the preamble for the book. Thanks, that’s exactly it. So, good job. Good job. Okay. Michelle, so pretty much all organizational changes start with some version of a current state and a future state, with an understanding of what the delta is, what’s the size of the change to bridge that gap. Can you paint us a picture of what hat situation is like today, November 2020, with regards to gender equality in the workplace?

Current state and future state. 

Michelle Redfern:

Yes, I can. So, if I was to say to you that … Well, I can say to you that my purpose is to contribute to creating a gender equal world. So, that we could look at it in a binary sense. So, when we talk about gender, I will deliberately talk, men, women. When of course, that is not just the case. But I don’t want to get into a long, detailed discussion about gender. So, if we were just to look at the binary version of gender, 50/50. All right. So, we want equal numbers of men and women in workplaces, at every level across the world. We certainly want gender balance on Boards and in Executive teams.

So, if that’s the desire, we are a fair way away from that. So, the desired state and the current state, the delta is pretty big. And look, it depends on which geography you’re in, which sector. But broadly speaking, roughly give or take, for a CEO for example, there’s roughly, 10% female CEOs in Australia. So, that’s a fair way to go. Boards, we have roughly, but although we’re stagnating and now starting to see numbers go or retreat. We have roughly, 29 to 30% women on boards. And then, in Executive leadership, dominated by men. So, we have roughly, between 70 and 75% of leadership roles at Executive level, are occupied by men.

What we can also do is overlay that with the intersectionality. So, other. So, we’d look at women and men of color, massively underrepresented. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women and men, underrepresented. People who identify as having a disability, massively underrepresented. And that’s important to reflect on. Because there is no business anywhere in the world, that doesn’t have a consumer of some description. And companies who are not yet gender balanced, not yet culturally diverse, not yet representative of society, are less likely to be representative of their consumers. Therefore, the folk that buy their goods. So, there’s a whole bunch of stuff. But that was a long answer. But current state, non mature. Desired state, long, long way away.

The drivers of change 

 

Dr. Jen Frahm:

Okay. I’m curious then, if we think about the rationale for creating change, or what is it going to take to change those numbers around? Are the drivers primarily economic? So, is there an ROI on a gender balanced organization? Is it justice space? Is it humanitarian? What are the primary drivers? And I guess maybe there’s an assumption behind this question, is what should they be versus what are they really?

Michelle Redfern:

Yeah. And you know what’s been really interesting, even in the four or five years since I’ve been doing this work in a dedicated form, the focus has shift very much from the business case for gender diversity, and for gender balance in organizations, has been written and proved for close to 30 years. And so, has the data been available and, and, and, and, and, and.

So, one could argue that whilst the business case and certainly I can remember developing my fair share of business cases to promote more women in leadership, or to have women developed, blah, blah, blah. Once could argue that the business case, therefore the driver, is the financial, the economic drivers are not the ones that make a difference. That it’s actually more of a social justice, the right thing to do driver. And more and more, the conversations that I’m having with my clients, with colleagues across all facets of society, have shifted to the right thing to do. And our right as a good corporate is to play in the playgrounds that we play in, means we’ve got to look like this, sound like this, and be a lot more representative of those that we serve.

Now, whether those that we serve are investors, shareholders, people, customers. It’s simply those three. Or stakeholders in the stake of full purpose. But that the language and the tone and the emphasis has absolutely shifted to, what is the right thing to do? For me, very, very pleasing.

Now, I am no Pollyanna. There are still a lot of folk out there who want to see what the return on the investment is. And I am much more adept, look, I can do a business case till the cows come home. But thankfully, I haven’t been asked to do one for probably three years. But I am far more adept at having a conversation about, “Let’s have a talk with your Board about your risk and opportunity register. What does that look like?” Because when the optics around your organization are held up for… When the numbers, the composition, the way you do stuff as as organization is help up in the cold, hard light of day, does it stand up to scrutiny across a whole bunch of different parameters?

So, that’s pleasingly for me, where the conversation has shifted. Now, I’ll take a step back and contradict myself now. And I actually say to organizations, “You’ve got to be much cleverer about the way you invest, and to get the return on the investment when it comes to inclusion, diversity and equity in workplaces.

Stop spending money on dumb stuff. Because the dumb stuff is the off the shelf. Let’s sheep dip everyone through the same program. Let’s all go to unconscious bias training. Because gee wiz, that’s really going to help.” Said no one ever. Well, except for the people who sell unconscious bias.

Dr. Jen Frahm:

I was going to say, except for the consultants who are selling it.

Michelle Redfern:

Yeah, exactly. So, the conversation has shifted Jen. I don’t know that those that are still over reliant on quantitative data and quantitative proof points, have been managed through the change to get to what’s the qualitative data that supports our decision? How do we measure success in perhaps a different way than we have done for the last 100, 200 years for an organization? And we’ve seen that in just this year, I guess, the bad behavior stories that have bubbled up through the press.

Particularly, in Australia now. There are three fairly high profile for profit organizations. And of course, our federal government has been in the spotlight just in the last week, around behavior. And how are these becoming less and less tolerable or acceptable for behavior that was tolerable and acceptable. It’s not stomached. That’s actually not even a word. It’s not tolerated. It’s not accepted. It’s just not the done thing anymore. And these companies are now being held to greater levels of accountability, and are scrutinized. You know, the wonders of social media. The wonders of technology. Data, freely available data. Mean that there’s a whole lot more stuff visible to people outside of organizations, which is creating the opportunity to look, feel, think, do, in different ways now.

Dr. Jen Frahm:

See, this is really interesting. This is one of the things I want to pick up in the book. It’s the reason why as leaders of change we need to change, is the shift in power dynamics. And Heimans and Timms talk about old power and new power. So, we’d equate it to the patriarchy and the senior white male in the organization having all the power. To now, the power has shifted to the populists, the communities, the customers, those kind of things. And Brene Brown talks about power over, versus power with, and power within.

So, it feels to me what you’ve spoken about there, is a really good example of how we’ve seen the shift of, “You can give me the economic business case. But power over, tells me I’m still going to preserve the status quo.” In recognizing that the power has shifted, which is quite an optimistic story. That’s been the driver of change.

Michelle Redfern:

Yeah. And I mean, there are still absolutely positive economic outcomes. Or positive financial outcomes to achieving more equity in workplaces and society. Pardon me. And I still, I will go back to a couple of those at a macro economic perspective. We know that simple shifts in workplace participation by women, can contribute to GDP. Now, the simple math is, if women work more, they earn more. And when they earn more, they spend more. Because women are typically, and I’m very careful about using the word typically, even though I use it. Because let’s just say the great many women, are in heterosexual families or family units, are the decision makers or the key influencer for consumer spending in that household. To the tune of between 75 and 80%.

So, if she is earning more, she’s going to spend more. And therefore, consumption goes up. And when consumption goes up, investment goes up. And we all know, well, many of us know the the GDP calculation. So, for me, there’s a very simple economic outcome. So, what do we need to do, to do that? We need to create the opportunity for more women to participate. And for me, it’s always about choice. The opportunity for women to participate in the workforce, in a way that works for them and those that they care about. So, that’s the structural side of things. And this is why the debate around universal childcare and access to childcare is so, so important. And it’s a  investment by courageous governments. Because they understand that in the long term, that’s going to create a very, very strong, knock-on. A positive knock-on effect to the economy.

From a workplace perspective, there is no race for talent anymore, it’s a war for talent. And the war for talent, for the best and brightest people, for whatever widgets your organization makes, is well and truly on. And interestingly, I was on a call earlier today. And I said, “Who is the most powerful, apart from women having decision making. But the biggest consumer group ever in the history of the world right now, are millennials.” Love them or hate them, I love them. But millennials, of which both my children are, they are upwards of 35% of the universe. They have more disposable income than they’ve ever had before. And they are a very powerful consumer. They’re also a very powerful employee. And they want different experiences, different life and career experiences from their employers than my generation did.

So, how do you attract, engage and advance the best and brightest talent? You have workplaces that work. And workplaces that are homogenous. And perhaps in that power, coming back to those power dynamics, where the power is all at the top of the triangle. And there’s great sets of disenfranchisement at the bottom of the triangle. Not going to work. So, there’s an economic argument around equity, inclusion and balance across the genders in organizations. Because those people want to work in places that are overtly committed to creating those places. And if they’re not, it costs a lot of money. Attrition, turnover, costs organizations a lot of money.

Change interventions

Dr. Jen Frahm:

And I guess that kind of leads into the question around, what are the most effective change interventions in the organization? So, you could argue, recruiting is an important change intervention. Because you’re getting in from that level. We know that sheep dipping, putting people through their two day workshops in unconscious bias et cetera, that kind of thing. Does not have a lasting effect. What are the effective change interventions in organizations around?

Michelle Redfern:

You know what? I’m going to give the strategist’s answer, which is, it depends. So, I’m not …

Dr. Jen Frahm:

Show me some scenarios.

Michelle Redfern:

All right. So, one size doesn’t fit all. So, before any organizational leader says, “That’s what I’m going to go off and do.” You have got to uncover and discover your brutal truths. So, the current state. And I am still surprised at the amount of potential engagements that I get, where people say, “I’d like you to do this for us.” “So, why are you doing that? Have you done the diagnostic? What’s your current state?” Isn’t that what’s always done? Unconscious bias training, mentoring for women, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. “Okay. Well, that might be the case. But I don’t think you actually know what the problem is that you’re trying to solve.”

So, let’s assume that the diagnostic has been done and the organization knows what problem there is to solve. The reality is, one and done is not enough. This is a continual process. Now, let me use a funny analogy here. Which I don’t know if my children will ever listen to your podcast Jen. But if they do, they will squirm. It’s a little bit like talking to your kids about sex. So, I did not have the talk with either of my children. What I did was answer questions, and be there. And triage their curiosity on an ongoing basis, right through to then, creating interventions. “Dear son, you will take a condom with you to that party.” “Oh my god Mum, you are so embarrassing.” So, the reality is, it’s constant. There’s a constant flow of information. There’s constant access to resources, to tools, to experts. And to those that help us navigate, what will be the potentially biggest step change? As in those really uncomfortable bits around change, that you will tell us better than I can Jen, that we’re all biologically programmed to resist like hell. But the reality is, it’s got to be constant.

What does that mean practically? It means that it’s not the responsibility of the HR person. It’s not the responsibility if there’s someone called a D&I Consultant in your organization. It is the responsibility of leadership. And the interventions right at the start are, who’s at the top of the tree? Are they onboard? If not, why not? And let’s have a talk about that. That’s a very first one. Because grassroots movements are great. And yes, we’ve talked about power shifts and dynamics. But at the end of the day, strategy, the financial strategy, the strategy for growth, the strategy for, “This is what we do in this business”, happens at the Board and at the Executive table. And unless those two sets of stakeholders are fully onboard, it’s a tough road.

Characteristics of a great change leader  

Dr. Jen Frahm:

Yep. So, on that, the tough road. I’m kind of curious around and it’s a double-barreled question, what are the characteristics of a great leader of change in this domain? And what are the mine-fields that they have to cross? So, tell me about that tough road. And again, I’ve made an assumption that those two are married together. The characteristics get them through the road. So, tell us a bit about that.

Michelle Redfern:

So, the characteristics in the context of whether it’s inclusion, diversity, equity, or safety as one of my other clients is navigating at the moment. Or any other, whether it’s a new widget being deployed in the organisation, whatever it may be. The very first thing, is to go, “How? I don’t know what I’m talking about. I actually don’t know, I’m not an expert in this field.” And for those of us who have professionally developed, particularly in one vertical and we are extremely expert in our craft. To discover at a very senior leadership level that you are not skilled in a particular domain, can be very humbling or humiliating. And that humiliation can lead to, “Oh, that’s all right. I know what I’m talking about. And I’ll just crack on regardless. And I don’t need to listen to anyone.” So, that’s warning sign. “Yep. Yep. Yep. Got it all. Got it all. Off I go.”

You’ve got to learn to sit in the uncomfortable knowledge that you’re not an expert. And my own experience around that, is around cultural diversity. Yes, I am egalitarian and I’m an inclusionist and what have you. But I have a bucket load to learn, continue learning more about being more inclusive of women and men who are black and brown. Who do not look like me, sound like me, or enjoy the privilege. And I am very, very fortunate that I have some people who I work with, who provide the odd intervention on my behalf. And I’ve got to suck that up, and know that I don’t have lived experience as a black or brown person. So, I need to actually listen to and learn from those folks.

So, when leaders are about to undertake the beginning, and it’s a journey that never ends. When they’re about to undertake a program of change to create a more inclusive workplace, the very first thing to be on the alert for, is the person who says, “yep. Yep. I know all about this.” And I thought, “Well, if you do, why haven’t you done something about that prior to now? So, let’s call BS on that for a start.” But also, to be very, very willing to be kind and compassionate to leaders who are very, very experienced. Very respected. Who have delivered outstanding results. Have had a proven track record. To be very compassionate to the fact that they now find themselves in the position of low power, low knowledge, and that they’ve got to admit that they are there.

And they are people I most enjoy working with. Including, I can remember one of my peers at the time when you and I were working together Jen. When I first did some color courageous work in a leadership team that I was in. And this person said to me, he said, “You know what Michelle? You make me feel safe to say, I don’t know what I’m talking about. Can you help me? Can we do this together? I’ve got to do more, but I actually have no idea what I’m doing. So, let’s do this together.” And I went, “Awesome.” Really good learning experience for me, that I also have to be as a part of that being a Change Practitioner in this domain, to be kind and compassionate to those who are learning new skills. I think I’ve gone off the track a little bit there Jen. But that’s …

Dr. Jen Frahm:

That’s okay. I think there was good learning in it.

Michelle Redfern:

Yeah. It’s just so important, you know? That you cannot underestimate the emotions that people have when they figure out that they’re not very good at something.

Dr. Jen Frahm:

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It’s a massive threat. It’s a threat to them.

Michelle Redfern:

And what happens when you’re threatened? Right? It’s fight, flight, freeze.

And you see it. You see it around leadership tables. And it’s like a little bubble pops up, “Oh, I know what you’re doing.” And I’ve got to be really, really tuned in to that. Really tuned in.

Immediate change actions 

Dr. Jen Frahm:

Yeah. Yeah. Tell me, what are three things that a leader could do tomorrow, that would advance change in this space of gender equality?

Michelle Redfern:

Management by walking around. So, really walk around. Difficult at the moment, in our human distanced environment. But put some different eyes on. And work out how you can walk around your workplace, and try and walk a mile in other people’s shoes. The way that leaders can do that, is by inviting conversations. I must admit, I’m very proud of an ever evolving tool that I use called a five by five. And it’s have five conversations with people who don’t look like you or sound like you, or have the same power as you. And here’s a discussion guide. And listen. But prepare by being prepared to listen. Being prepared to hear stuff that you might not like. And don’t try and solve it. So, that would be one thing. Even though, there’s a lot of things in that.

Please don’t ask an underrepresented person to educate you about their under representation. The burden has got to be on you to learn. So, if you’re curious, please be curious. But go and learn yourself. And then, ask clarifying questions. And I think certainly this year around race and Black Lives Matter, the George Floyd murder, and being a better white person by not expecting black people to educate me, has been a constant opportunity to learn. And the way you can do that is quite simply, go diversify the people you hang out with. Diversify your Twitter feed. Diversify your LinkedIn connections. Diversify the books that you read, or the magazines, or the papers that you subscribe to.

And the third thing would be, to be visible with your own team. “Hey team, I’ve had a bit of an epiphany. This is what I’m doing personally as a part of my development. You might see some changes in me. Or you might see me asking different questions, or doing some different things. I’m going to stuff up from time to time. Tell me when I’ve stuffed up. But understand, this is what’s important to me now. And this is the kind of pathway I’m choosing. I invite you to go with me. But understand, this is where I’m going.” Be visible and vocal about what you’re doing, and why. That’s it.

Dr. Jen Frahm:

That’ll be really powerful. Yeah.

Michelle Redfern:

It gives a lot of permission. Because let’s face it, and particularly in environments culturally that are moving from command and control, to flatter, more egalitarian, more matrix style whatever cultures. There are still people who are waiting for the boss to tell them what to do.

Dr. Jen Frahm:

Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

Michelle Redfern:

Give them that permission.

Dr. Jen Frahm:

I think it’s also, it’s that notion of invitation.

Michelle Redfern:

Yeah.

Dr. Jen Frahm:

You know? Inviting your team to learn with you. But also, holding you accountable.

Michelle Redfern:

Yep. And I think the invitation is a really good thing. Because no matter what your current mindset’s are, where you are on your own, very personal journey around inclusion and equity. Being invited, means that you’re not being told what to do or what to believe. And yes, we want workplaces to accelerate their focus on inclusion. But that’s inclusive in and of itself. I invite you, I’m not commanding you. But this is what’s important to me. And as you and I both know, leadership casts a very long shadow. Or less kindly, monkey see monkey do.

Dr. Jen Frahm:

Oh, we could bring out all the tropes as this time.

Michelle Redfern:

Oh, we totally could.

Dr. Jen Frahm:

We’ve got fish rotting from the head. Are you up for some word association?

Michelle Redfern:

Oh, yeah.

Dr. Jen Frahm:

All right.

Michelle Redfern:

I’ll try not to swear.

Dr. Jen Frahm:

I should’ve put the disclaimer in at the beginning of this call. Particularly, for the overseas listeners. The Australians are probably a bit more used to it. That, yeah, I don’t edit these recordings. And so, Michelle could drop a clanger or two. But it’s okay.

Michelle Redfern:

Yeah. I’ll try and be on my best behavior.

Dr. Jen Frahm:

Hey, you have done exceptionally well. We’ve been going for just over 30 minutes, and you have not.

Michelle Redfern:

I may.

Dr. Jen Frahm:

I reckon, home path Michelle. Home path. Okay. Five characteristics of great change leaders.

Courage

 

Michelle Redfern:

Vulnerability.

Dr. Jen Frahm:

No, that’s my next word.

Michelle Redfern:

Oh, sorry. All right. Well, okay, let me give you another one. Courage means having the guts to use two ears and one mouth in proportion. Having the courage to be silent and listen. Having the courage, what is it? Courage is not the absence of fear, but it’s the ability to understand but still say something. Still understand your fear, but say something. So, yeah.

Dr. Jen Frahm:

Excellent. And now that you’re primed,

Vulnerability?

 

Michelle Redfern:

Leadership. Essential to leadership. I’ve been very, very regular about my own journey with vulnerability. Which will continue, but a game changer. And invulnerability is quite simply, locking people out of what makes you great.

Empathy?

 

Michelle Redfern:

Well, there’s a deficit of empathy. So, if I was going to do one word for one word, I’d say deficit. I would like to see an explosion of empathy. And empathy is not sympathy as your dear listeners will know. But it’s about saying, “How do I walk a mile in the other person’s shoes?” I do an exercise with my clients called ‘Walk a Mile’. And I want them to walk a mile in a person that isn’t like them, and has different life experiences to them. This is where artificial intelligence is going to be wonderful for me. But yeah, absolutely essential. If you want to attract, engage and advance the best and brightest people, you’ve got to have empathy in your organization.

Curiosity?

 

Michelle Redfern:

Well, for our American listeners, I was always known as a nosy parker, stickybeak. “You’re such a stickybeak.” Well, two things, stickybeak, disruptive. Well, three things, talks too much. Now, being a disrupter is a bloody good thing. And being a stickybeak, being curious, is even better. And combine the two, when you’re curious about, “So, why is it that we do things that way? And I wonder if we try doing it this way, what would happen?” So, curiosity is the hotbed of creativity and innovation. And we’ve got to unleash it. And we’ve got to give people permission to be curious.

 

Self-compassion?

 

Michelle Redfern:

When you can learn to be as nice to yourself as you are to other people you care about, it’s a fairly nice place to be. In fact, it’s a blissful place to be. I once heard a woman talk about, she said, “Would you talk to your mum, your partner, your best friend, your child, the way you talk to yourself?” And in my head I went, oh, I nearly said it, “Hell no.” That wasn’t the word I used. “Hell no.” And then, her next question is, “So, why do you talk to yourself that way?” And I went, “God.” And it was such a simple but profound thing for me.

And I thought, “Why don’t I like myself very much? Why don’t I speak to myself very nicely? Why don’t I talk care of myself?” And when you take care of yourself, it’s the old oxygen mask on first. I’m no good to anyone in the plane if it’s doing whatever it’s going to be doing, when you need oxygen masks, if I’m [down on the floor gasping for air. So, self compassion starts at … Well, compassion starts at home. You cannot be compassionate for other people, truly, really, if you’re not compassionate towards yourself.

Dr. Jen Frahm:

That’s wonderful. Michelle, you have been extraordinarily generous with us over this time. You’ve given way more free consulting than anybody ever deserved. What can this audience do for you? How can we serve you?

Michelle Redfern:

You can serve me by really truly thinking deeply about the stuff that I either talk about or write about. I want people to care more deeply about their colleagues, about people that they don’t know. I particularly want people who have power and privilege, to not be ashamed of that power or privilege. I have power and privilege. I’m a middle-aged, white, apparently affluent, educated woman. And I am not ashamed of that. Because apart from the arguably affluent, all of that other stuff has happened to me. I didn’t do anything about it. But by crikey, I can use that power and that privilege to make the world a better place. And I know that’s really trite. But seriously, just do one nice thing every day, please. Because if every person, every adult in Australia even did one nice thing a month, it’s 15 million nice things a month that would happen in Australia. Can you imagine how different our society would be?

Dr. Jen Frahm:

I reckon, it’d be bit different.

Michelle Redfern:

Yep. So, that’s what they can do.

Dr. Jen Frahm:

Michelle, thank you so much. Listeners, I will post all of Michelle’s social links on the show notes and the block post that comes out after this. So, if you are not currently connected or following Michelle, you’re a fool. Make sure you do. It’s going to be life changing for you, is what I will say. Michelle Redfern, thank you so much for your time.

Michelle Redfern:

Dr. Jen, thank you.

 

 

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A change management Jiminy Cricket, sitting on your shoulder coaching you on the way forward. I know you’re capable of greatness. So drop me a line.

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